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Offline neptune

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starboard
« on: November 22, 2006, 04:58:00 PM »
can any one think of an example when starboard does not have right of way ? :?:
unless otherwise stated views are my own.
bob Atkinson rtd

Offline Muzza

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starboard
« Reply #1 on: November 22, 2006, 07:38:11 PM »
Is this a trick question?

Ignoring situations where one starboard boat has to deal with another boat also on starboard, I'd suggest a few situations:

1. When the starboard tack boat is acquiring right of way (Rule 15).

2. When the starboard tack boat is changing course (Rule 16.1  - she retains "right of way" but must allow the other boat(s) room to "keep clear").  16.2 - the anti-hunting rule, is similar.

3.  If Rule 18.3 (Tacking at the mark) applies in favour of a port tack boat.

4.  When the starboard tack boat must give room to a boat which must tack onto port tack to clear an obstruction (Rule 19.1).

Note that in the above, my examples include situations where the starboard boat must allow the port tack boat room (to keep clear).  Thus she doesn't actually lose her RoW (which is defined at the beginning of Part 2 Section A as any situation where another boat is required to keep clear of her, but is restricted in what she can do with her right of way (i.e. must allow the other boat room).

The distinction is important.

Hence my suspicion that you are trying to trick us with the phrases used. ;-)
urray B
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Offline neptune

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starboard
« Reply #2 on: November 22, 2006, 08:46:07 PM »
Not a trick Q and thanks or the imput  

 Note that in the above, my examples include situations where the starboard boat must allow the port tack boat room (to keep clear)

muzza i thought the port tack boat had to keep clear ?
unless otherwise stated views are my own.
bob Atkinson rtd

Offline Muzza

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starboard
« Reply #3 on: November 23, 2006, 02:48:06 AM »
Yup.  Port must keep clear, but in the situations addressed by the rules above, starboard must allow port room to do so.

So, for example, where a boat completes a tack onto starboard, and thus acquires right of way, but in doing so places a port tack boat in a position where she must take immediate action to avoid contact, the starboard tack boat must give her room to take that avoiding action.  

So one could say that starboard has acquired RoW, but is temporarily constrained in how she can enforce that RoW.  Of course that example (tacking in another boat's water) is very common for us, as is tacking when Rule 18.3 applies - the later being very hard to judge, visually, from a distance.
urray B
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Offline neptune

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starboard
« Reply #4 on: November 23, 2006, 04:51:03 PM »
below is a very good responce to the Q

A couple of examples readily come to mind.

 

The first example is really a limitation on the rights of the starboard hand boat.

 

Rule 16.2  In addition, when after the starting signal boats are about to cross or are crossing each other on opposite tacks,  and the port-tack boat is keeping clear of the starboard-tack boat,  the starboard-tack boat shall not change course if as a result the port tack boat would immediately need to change course to continue keeping clear.

 

This means that even though you are on starboard if you are about to cross tacks with a port-tacking boat (who is going to pass clear ahead of you) and you get a beneficial wind shift you may not be able to take advantage of it if your change of course would result in the port-tacking boat immediately having to change course to continue to keep clear.

 

 

The second example is when boats are about to round or pass a leeward mark.

 

Rule 18.2(a)  When boats are overlapped the outside boat shall give the inside boat room to round or pass the mark or obstruction and if the inside boat has right of way the outside boat shall also keep clear.

 

This means that once you are about to round or pass the leeward mark (and almost certainly you will be if you are at or/inside 4 boat lengths …… although this can vary with wind/sea conditions) the outside boat (even though if it is on starboard) must give the inside boat room to round or pass the mark even though the inside boat may be on port gybe.  If the boat on starboard has to gybe to keep clear then it must do so.  Prior to arriving at the point where the boats are about to round or pass the mark the starboard gybe boat would of course have had right of way.

 

I would recommend a copy of 2005 – 2008 The Rules in Practice by Bryan Willis (has plenty of pictures to illustrate the various rule situations) or visit http://www.finckh.net/indexe.htm.

thanks
unless otherwise stated views are my own.
bob Atkinson rtd

Offline IanHB

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starboard
« Reply #5 on: November 23, 2006, 07:07:34 PM »
Quote
Rule 16.2 In addition, when after the starting signal boats are about to cross or are crossing each other on opposite tacks, and the port-tack boat is keeping clear of the starboard-tack boat, the starboard-tack boat shall not change course if as a result the port tack boat would immediately need to change course to continue keeping clear.


Bob, you may need to check your copy of the regulations is in fact the latest 2005-2008 version because the rule you quote has now been altered with the addition of the word astern which means that the starboard tack boat can now hunt the port tacker trying to pass in front of her.

I personally think it is a stupid change but like all of us I have no say. :cry:
Do it NOW, before it`s too late!

Offline Browny

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Starboard
« Reply #6 on: November 27, 2006, 05:59:34 PM »
Ive read the replies with interest as to what rights a starboard tacker has. What about a situation with 3 boats sailing towards the bank ???The first boat arrives and tacks onto starboard and has sailed approximately 4 to 5 boat lengths onstarboard when the second boat arrives also tacking onto starboard and also sailing approxmately 2 boat lengths away from the bank when the 3 boat approaching at speed tries to go over the top of the second boat and under the first boat but instead gets nailed by the second boat resulting in boat 2 protesting boat 3 what should the outcome be ???????

Offline Browny

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Starboard
« Reply #7 on: November 27, 2006, 06:30:10 PM »
Ive read the replies with interest as to what rights a starboard tacker has. What about a situation with 3 boats sailing towards the bank ???The first boat arrives and tacks onto starboard and has sailed approximately 4 to 5 boat lengths onstarboard when the second boat arrives also tacking onto starboard and also sailing approxmately 2 boat lengths away from the bank when the 3 boat approaching at speed tries to go over the top of the second boat and under the first boat but instead gets nailed by the second boat resulting in boat 2 protesting boat 3 what should the outcome be ???????

Offline ec12nz

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starboard
« Reply #8 on: November 27, 2006, 08:04:32 PM »
Boat 3 could be deemed to sirry irriot at that stage - obvioulsy misjudged the windward leeward spacing and "available" space to try and duck into and forgetting that boats do the leanny over thing and take up loads more spce than the wet bit!

I presume Boat 1 called tacking for water and 2 did likewise?

Saw this many times last week in Nelson for EC12 regatta - don't recall any incidents like this tho as they either ducked boat 2 and gained windward and starboard rights further on, or tacked away early.

Boat 3 crash and burn - protest his butt outta there.  :shock:
Chris
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Offline IanHB

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starboard
« Reply #9 on: November 27, 2006, 08:06:09 PM »
What should the outcome be?
Properly a swift kick up the ar*e of the boat 3 skipper.
Man, if he could not see that situation coming then he would deserve the kicking.
Seriously though these are the sorts of incidents that should not happen.
Damage to the boats involved is a very real danger.
The correct thing for boat 2 skipper to do would be to tack away to avoid a collision (and call PROTEST) but I bet he didn`t and just kept sailing into the collision.
Knowing model yacht sailors as I do if you tack away then boat 3 skipper would claim "there was no contact " and claim no foul was committed.
Am I right?
We have to learn to look further ahead and stay out of trouble.:oops:
Do it NOW, before it`s too late!

Offline neptune

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starboard
« Reply #10 on: November 27, 2006, 09:38:28 PM »
many thanks for the interest in this topic,very good posts, remind me not to be on port tack when sailing with you.
This i believe is the forum working as it should,and i look forward to many more posts in the same vein.
unless otherwise stated views are my own.
bob Atkinson rtd

Offline Browny

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Calling for water
« Reply #11 on: November 28, 2006, 12:34:17 PM »
Surely there should not be any need to call for water if aboat has tacked onto starboard and sailed several boat lengths clear of any other boat before any contact was made boat 3 in my mind should have been looking ahead and tacked away to avoid this situation instead of trying to go over the top of boat2 and under boat 3 to obtain windward position. A lot of club mags i read often have a page on rules and the one that is always at the top of the list is PORT gives way toSTARBOARD this should be ammended to read PORT gives way to STARBOARD some times

Offline neptune

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starboard
« Reply #12 on: November 28, 2006, 08:51:07 PM »
browny,
 you say there is no need to call for water ? perhaps but in the scene you describe you would be sailing away from the obsticle(shore)and i would think your call would be Starboard to remind the other boat of your right of way ?The rules of sailing could be explained in many ways but......................the word Sportsmanship should cover all aspects of sailing
unless otherwise stated views are my own.
bob Atkinson rtd

Offline Browny

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Port and Starboard
« Reply #13 on: November 29, 2006, 09:15:47 AM »
Bob I agree whole heartedly with what you say. In this incident starboard was called twice. Incidently the protest was dismissed even though there was contact between 2 boats.????Fareness prevailed.Like you say its never to late to learn

Offline neptune

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« Reply #14 on: November 29, 2006, 09:16:29 PM »
from a recieved email  


The wording of Rule 16.2 has indeed changed by the adding of the words “by sailing to pass astern” and I would agree with Ian HB that it is probably a backward step.

 

The situation however is still covered to a large degree by Rule 16.1 – When a right-of-way boat changes course, she shall give the other boat room to keep clear.

 

If there is a lift (beneficial wind shift) just as a port tack is about to cross in front of a starboard tack boat then the starboard tack boat may be prevented from taking advantage (or full advantage) of the lift.

 

If the boats are still at some distance apart (say 3 – 4 boat lengths) when the lift occurs then the starboard tack boat may be able to take some of the lift.  However as the distance closes between the two boats (down to say less than two boat lengths and almost certainly at one boat length) the starboard tack boat needs to hold its course.

 

The port tack boat does not have to anticipate that the starboard tack boat is going to keep changing course it only has to react to the situation at each point in time and it has to have room (and time) to react (in a seamanlike manner) to the change in course of the starboard tack boat.

 

If the starboard tack boat continues to change course and a collision occurs or the port tack boat has to manoeuvre in an unseamanlike manner (eg crash tack) to avoid a collision then the starboard tack boat would have infringed Rule 16

 

Skippers need to remind themselves that the rules have been put in place to allow a sailing competition to be carried out in good sportsmanship and to avoid collisions when boats are in close proximity. We should also remember that we are fleet racing not match racing and that being on starboard does not mean you can do what you bloody well like.

Thanks to all who give of there time and understnding of the rules

neptune
unless otherwise stated views are my own.
bob Atkinson rtd